(This is a guest post by Pacifist Viking, Cruelty-Free Mommy's husband and Fox's father. Occasionally I'll chime in with a guest post).
Let's set some context for this tale of woe and horror. I haven't been a parent very long, and I know it; there's a lot I don't know. When my experienced family and friends tell me things about babies and/or parenting, I listen, because I know that they know things I don't know and should know. I'm not arrogant and I'm not resistent to parenting advice.
Today, a mild day with a very light and occasional breeze, I took Fox on a walk. When we go on walks (which is frequent), he is covered from the back, both sides, and the top. We make sure he is comfortable, not too hot or cold, and we protect his skin and eyes from the sun.
I walked past an old woman sweeping leaves. She started asking about my baby, so I stopped to show him to her.
"Don't let him get wind in his ears. He'll get an ear ache," she said.
"That's what I always told my kids. Don't let a baby get wind in his ears, because he can't tell you it hurts," she said. "He'll just pull on his ear."
"If you were my little baby, I'd have a hat on you when I took you out," she said.
"I just hate to see babies get ear aches, because they can't tell you it hurts," she said.
She actually said all of these things. At first, I thought she was just being chatty. By the end, I think it was obvious she was being judgmental. I suspect she probably called her friends to talk about the horrible parent walking his son around on a 70 degree summer day with no hat to cover his ears.
I really don't know whether it is true that babies get ear aches if they are exposed to wind (it's possible, but it sounds like an old myth. At any rate, Fox was burrowed pretty deep in his infant stroller, and could hardly be considered exposed to any strong wind). I do know that babies often spend time outside. We spend a lot of time outside with Fox, usually on walks, and he rarely acts fussy afterward (actually, our son is incredibly mild mannered and usually quite happy and smily. He is rarely fussy as long as he is getting some sort of attention). I also know that knowledge of babies changes very quickly: when I was a baby parents were taught to put their babies to sleep on their stomachs, and today parents are taught to put their babies to sleep on their backs.
The point is, as a young parent that is completely unknown to this old woman, I don't need her judgment. Her homespun advice about wind and ear aches might be helpful; her passive aggressive insults are not. There is a great deal of useful information about childrens' health easily available to young parents today (from the hospital, books, magazines, the internet, friends with children, our own parents, etc.). I'll happily listen to her advice, but when I'm taking my child out for a pleasant, peaceful, healthy walk on a beautiful summer day, I really don't need her judgmental tone disapproving of my child's exposure to wind.
At what point are strangers out of line to vocally cast their judgment on parents? And how should parents respond to these judgments?
24.6.07
Starting Young
Habits are hard to break. Ask any smoker. Because of this, it is really important to start parenting a baby the same way you would like to parent a toddler, a child, a teen, etc. I have big dreams for my son, so I am trying to lay the foundation now, while he is too young to really understand anything, so that the habits I develop as a parent are good ones, and I don't struggle to 'become' a good parent when my child is older.
One quality I hope he possesses is tolerance and understanding of all people. In order to foster this, I hope to expose him to a variety to people, cultures, and lifestyles so that he never thinks of people as weird or different. When my husband and I were discussing where to buy a house, we purposely chose an ethnically diverse neighborhood (in the best part of the best city EVER!). We really love it there, and we feel better knowing our boy will not grow up amidst a flock of other white protestants. This weekend, we took him to the 2007 Pride Festival at Loring Park. He slept the whole time, so he really didn't get any exposure to the GLBT community, but he was there. Hopefully, he will be there next year too, and the year after, and so on. My goal is to get myself in the habit, so that I don't decide when he is 16 that he really should spend some time getting to know about GLBT issues, and then have it backfire when I take him to the 2023 Pride Festival, and he makes some rude comment to a someone based on prejudices he learned from other kids.
Another thing I want to avoid is obesity. So many kids struggle with this, and although often it is genetic, it isn't always. And who can blame a kid for watching TV and eating Big Macs all day if his parents say it's okay? I would. TV and Big Macs are pretty sweet. Anyway, to help get myself in shape to keep my son in shape, we are doing a couple of things. First, we go for family walks daily. It isn't much in the way of a workout, but it is something. He will learn that it is normal for families to get out and move every day. Second, he isn't allowed to watch TV. What does a 5 month old need to watch TV for? I know if I let myself let him get in the habit, even if it is 15 or 20 minutes here or there so I can sweep the floor or whatever, it will be impossible (or at least really difficult) to stop. So I plan to just not start. When he is older (3 or 4), I will probably allow him to watch a half hour a day. Movies (as a family) don't count! But nothing until he is older.
The other thing we are doing to help us avoid obesity is raising him as a vegetarian (it has many other benefits, too, which I will discuss in detail in future posts). My kid is still just eating breast milk, so it isn't like his vegetarianism is an issue yet, but I am sure it will be some day. Sine my husband and I are both vegetarians, it is an easy choice to make. When he is older, he can make the choice himself about whether he wishes to remain a vegetarian or not (my guess is he will). But not until he is old enough to understand what meat is, what it does to hurt our bodies, and what happens to the animals on their journey to his plate. Regardless of a parent's views on meat consumption, it is fact (not opinion) that most meats are highly fatty and bad for the human body. So, as a way to help avoid childhood obesity, vegetarianism just makes sense.
These are some choices my husband and I have made for our child. Does anyone have any other good ideas of things we can start doing now to help us be good parents later?
One quality I hope he possesses is tolerance and understanding of all people. In order to foster this, I hope to expose him to a variety to people, cultures, and lifestyles so that he never thinks of people as weird or different. When my husband and I were discussing where to buy a house, we purposely chose an ethnically diverse neighborhood (in the best part of the best city EVER!). We really love it there, and we feel better knowing our boy will not grow up amidst a flock of other white protestants. This weekend, we took him to the 2007 Pride Festival at Loring Park. He slept the whole time, so he really didn't get any exposure to the GLBT community, but he was there. Hopefully, he will be there next year too, and the year after, and so on. My goal is to get myself in the habit, so that I don't decide when he is 16 that he really should spend some time getting to know about GLBT issues, and then have it backfire when I take him to the 2023 Pride Festival, and he makes some rude comment to a someone based on prejudices he learned from other kids.
Another thing I want to avoid is obesity. So many kids struggle with this, and although often it is genetic, it isn't always. And who can blame a kid for watching TV and eating Big Macs all day if his parents say it's okay? I would. TV and Big Macs are pretty sweet. Anyway, to help get myself in shape to keep my son in shape, we are doing a couple of things. First, we go for family walks daily. It isn't much in the way of a workout, but it is something. He will learn that it is normal for families to get out and move every day. Second, he isn't allowed to watch TV. What does a 5 month old need to watch TV for? I know if I let myself let him get in the habit, even if it is 15 or 20 minutes here or there so I can sweep the floor or whatever, it will be impossible (or at least really difficult) to stop. So I plan to just not start. When he is older (3 or 4), I will probably allow him to watch a half hour a day. Movies (as a family) don't count! But nothing until he is older.
The other thing we are doing to help us avoid obesity is raising him as a vegetarian (it has many other benefits, too, which I will discuss in detail in future posts). My kid is still just eating breast milk, so it isn't like his vegetarianism is an issue yet, but I am sure it will be some day. Sine my husband and I are both vegetarians, it is an easy choice to make. When he is older, he can make the choice himself about whether he wishes to remain a vegetarian or not (my guess is he will). But not until he is old enough to understand what meat is, what it does to hurt our bodies, and what happens to the animals on their journey to his plate. Regardless of a parent's views on meat consumption, it is fact (not opinion) that most meats are highly fatty and bad for the human body. So, as a way to help avoid childhood obesity, vegetarianism just makes sense.
These are some choices my husband and I have made for our child. Does anyone have any other good ideas of things we can start doing now to help us be good parents later?
22.6.07
In Defense of Breastfeeding
I am not going to spend too much time on this topic, because I feel like it has been discussed over and over by many experts. I only have a few new things to add to the dialogue.
I have yet to meet a person who thinks breastfeeding is bad. I think it is mostly agreed upon that if people can and want to, they should do it. I don't need to cite the benefits--you can read about them on your own if you are unaware. What I would like to talk about is the shame, guilt, and stigma associated with breastfeeding and what I think needs to happen to make this supposedly wonderful process actually wonderful.
I have been pretty lucky in my ability to breastfeed. I have had a few problems, but mostly things are going smoothly. I haven't faced much discrimination about my choice, either. But I know I am a minority in this, and that most women have many horror stories to share. My experiences are pretty tame, but I think they provide some insight.
The majority of mothers will tell you that their bodies are no longer their own. We are not the sleek, sexy, pure, holy figures you see on the pages of magazines. We are beds, shields, Kleenexes, incubators, and toys. I no longer consider my breasts sexual objects (maybe someday that will return). However, I know that most people, especially strangers who don't know I am nursing, would still consider them that way. I am not saying the whole world thinks I'm sexy, I just mean boobs are boobs. The other night, I went to a club for a friend's bachelorette party. By the end of the night, my right side had grown well past a D cup, while my left side held strong at a B/C. I stuck close to my friends and tried to not expose myself more than I had to, but still I got strange looks from lots of men. What could I say? Should I have to make excuses for my misshapen chest? Who gives them the right to look at and judge my body, anyway? Just because I am in a club doesn't mean I want to be objectified. The only male my body is meant to please now is my son.
In the same vein, I have some trouble with my appearance at work. I teach high school, and I try to dress professionally (or at least not sexy). But since my chest changes size during the day, it is hard to anticipate how a shirt will fit by 2:30 when I get dressed at 6:30. Some things look fine, but end up pretty tight in the chest or more low-cut than I would have thought. I have had minimal trouble with leaking during the day, but I still wear pads just in case. Sometimes, if I am having a particularly productive (milk-wise) day, you can see the little circles of the pads through my shirt. What to do? Again, should I have to feel ashamed and apologetic for the natural side effects of what most would consider to be a good and selfless choice? Fortunately, nobody at work has complained, but I am blessed to work at an enlightened school.
Since I work full time, I have to pump twice daily at work in order to remain comfortable and produce enough milk for my son. At my school, all teachers have keys to one another's rooms. So, in addition to wearing a nursing cover and locking my door, I have to post signs warning people not to come in. Still, in the 11 weeks I worked before summer break came, I was walked in on by the man who does our tech support once and on another unfortunate instance, the man who teaches phys ed, who was accompanied by two sixth grade boys. What else can I do? It didn't so much embarrass me, but I know they all felt horribly humiliated. I spent a long time feeling ashamed and apologetic (though I laughed it off to make everyone feel OK about it). I would like to just put a sign up that says, "I am pumping breast milk--I need privacy," but then I would feel bad exposing the high schoolers to the idea of breasts (mine, nonetheless). Should I have to feel bad about pumping at work, or about being open about it with people under the age of 18? Probably not. But that's the way it is in our society.
These are some of the issues I have had with breastfeeding (or at least the ones I am willing to share here in detail). I have had situations where I needed to feed my baby and I had to do it in front of others. I felt like some kind of leper. People stopped noticing me and talking to me, and it took a while to recover, even once I was done. Now, why do people have issues with breastfeeder? My theory is that only a few people have issues with it. Those people are probably just uncomfortable with nudity. And most of us hide under blankets rather than just whip out nipples, but the very idea that there is a nipple there freaks them out. I can't blame people for that. I do have a sub-theory that men in particular hate to see it, because it forces them to see breasts as something other than sexual, despite the fact that the only reason they are attracted to breasts in the first place is because of leftover feelings of comfort and affection from when they were breastfed as babies. Chicken/Omelet.
Other than those few people, I really think most people don't have issues with breastfeeding mothers. I am a big advocate of public breastfeeding (despite the fact that I rarely do it), but I still am not sure what to do when I encounter other mothers doing it. Usually I look out of interest, or even solidarity, until I am caught. Then, I look away awkwardly. These poor women probably assume I am judging them. So, people like me are probably being added to the pile of disapproving onlookers. The numbers are probably skewed. A bunch of the people who supposedly are against public breastfeeding are really just curious.
The group of people with issues against public breastfeeding is probably fewer than many think. However, this is a big issue for those of us who are making this choice. We need some changes. Here are my suggestions:
1. If you have a problem with public breastfeeding, try not to be offended by it. We do it because we are trying to make the best choice we can for our children. It isn't about you. We are not trying to bother you. You don't have to look if you don't want to. Please try not to make us feel uncomfortable, because chances are, we are much more sensitive about the issue than you are.
2. If you are a breastfeeding woman, stay strong. Do what you think is best for you and your kid, but don't be purposely in the faces of bystanders.
3. If you are a business owner/manager, set up a comfortable place for us to nurse. Some places have nice family rest-rooms with lounges for nursing. Others expect us to use our cars or a bathroom stall. I would rather sit down in the middle of a store and feed my son than take him into a disgusting bathroom stall and feed him. Nobody would expect a man to eat a hot dog at the urinal. I will not allow my baby to eat his food on a public toilet.
4. If you are a member of modern American society, get over your image of women. We are more than sexual objects. We are not lesser people, whether or not we have kids. Our opinions matter, our needs matter, and we are important. Does anyone really think breastfeeding would be an issue if men were the ones who did it? There would be nursing rooms in every store and laws to protect the rights of nursing dads. Prove me wrong. Women need to be given respect, and motherhood and nursing need to be given honor, freedom and acceptance.
I have yet to meet a person who thinks breastfeeding is bad. I think it is mostly agreed upon that if people can and want to, they should do it. I don't need to cite the benefits--you can read about them on your own if you are unaware. What I would like to talk about is the shame, guilt, and stigma associated with breastfeeding and what I think needs to happen to make this supposedly wonderful process actually wonderful.
I have been pretty lucky in my ability to breastfeed. I have had a few problems, but mostly things are going smoothly. I haven't faced much discrimination about my choice, either. But I know I am a minority in this, and that most women have many horror stories to share. My experiences are pretty tame, but I think they provide some insight.
The majority of mothers will tell you that their bodies are no longer their own. We are not the sleek, sexy, pure, holy figures you see on the pages of magazines. We are beds, shields, Kleenexes, incubators, and toys. I no longer consider my breasts sexual objects (maybe someday that will return). However, I know that most people, especially strangers who don't know I am nursing, would still consider them that way. I am not saying the whole world thinks I'm sexy, I just mean boobs are boobs. The other night, I went to a club for a friend's bachelorette party. By the end of the night, my right side had grown well past a D cup, while my left side held strong at a B/C. I stuck close to my friends and tried to not expose myself more than I had to, but still I got strange looks from lots of men. What could I say? Should I have to make excuses for my misshapen chest? Who gives them the right to look at and judge my body, anyway? Just because I am in a club doesn't mean I want to be objectified. The only male my body is meant to please now is my son.
In the same vein, I have some trouble with my appearance at work. I teach high school, and I try to dress professionally (or at least not sexy). But since my chest changes size during the day, it is hard to anticipate how a shirt will fit by 2:30 when I get dressed at 6:30. Some things look fine, but end up pretty tight in the chest or more low-cut than I would have thought. I have had minimal trouble with leaking during the day, but I still wear pads just in case. Sometimes, if I am having a particularly productive (milk-wise) day, you can see the little circles of the pads through my shirt. What to do? Again, should I have to feel ashamed and apologetic for the natural side effects of what most would consider to be a good and selfless choice? Fortunately, nobody at work has complained, but I am blessed to work at an enlightened school.
Since I work full time, I have to pump twice daily at work in order to remain comfortable and produce enough milk for my son. At my school, all teachers have keys to one another's rooms. So, in addition to wearing a nursing cover and locking my door, I have to post signs warning people not to come in. Still, in the 11 weeks I worked before summer break came, I was walked in on by the man who does our tech support once and on another unfortunate instance, the man who teaches phys ed, who was accompanied by two sixth grade boys. What else can I do? It didn't so much embarrass me, but I know they all felt horribly humiliated. I spent a long time feeling ashamed and apologetic (though I laughed it off to make everyone feel OK about it). I would like to just put a sign up that says, "I am pumping breast milk--I need privacy," but then I would feel bad exposing the high schoolers to the idea of breasts (mine, nonetheless). Should I have to feel bad about pumping at work, or about being open about it with people under the age of 18? Probably not. But that's the way it is in our society.
These are some of the issues I have had with breastfeeding (or at least the ones I am willing to share here in detail). I have had situations where I needed to feed my baby and I had to do it in front of others. I felt like some kind of leper. People stopped noticing me and talking to me, and it took a while to recover, even once I was done. Now, why do people have issues with breastfeeder? My theory is that only a few people have issues with it. Those people are probably just uncomfortable with nudity. And most of us hide under blankets rather than just whip out nipples, but the very idea that there is a nipple there freaks them out. I can't blame people for that. I do have a sub-theory that men in particular hate to see it, because it forces them to see breasts as something other than sexual, despite the fact that the only reason they are attracted to breasts in the first place is because of leftover feelings of comfort and affection from when they were breastfed as babies. Chicken/Omelet.
Other than those few people, I really think most people don't have issues with breastfeeding mothers. I am a big advocate of public breastfeeding (despite the fact that I rarely do it), but I still am not sure what to do when I encounter other mothers doing it. Usually I look out of interest, or even solidarity, until I am caught. Then, I look away awkwardly. These poor women probably assume I am judging them. So, people like me are probably being added to the pile of disapproving onlookers. The numbers are probably skewed. A bunch of the people who supposedly are against public breastfeeding are really just curious.
The group of people with issues against public breastfeeding is probably fewer than many think. However, this is a big issue for those of us who are making this choice. We need some changes. Here are my suggestions:
1. If you have a problem with public breastfeeding, try not to be offended by it. We do it because we are trying to make the best choice we can for our children. It isn't about you. We are not trying to bother you. You don't have to look if you don't want to. Please try not to make us feel uncomfortable, because chances are, we are much more sensitive about the issue than you are.
2. If you are a breastfeeding woman, stay strong. Do what you think is best for you and your kid, but don't be purposely in the faces of bystanders.
3. If you are a business owner/manager, set up a comfortable place for us to nurse. Some places have nice family rest-rooms with lounges for nursing. Others expect us to use our cars or a bathroom stall. I would rather sit down in the middle of a store and feed my son than take him into a disgusting bathroom stall and feed him. Nobody would expect a man to eat a hot dog at the urinal. I will not allow my baby to eat his food on a public toilet.
4. If you are a member of modern American society, get over your image of women. We are more than sexual objects. We are not lesser people, whether or not we have kids. Our opinions matter, our needs matter, and we are important. Does anyone really think breastfeeding would be an issue if men were the ones who did it? There would be nursing rooms in every store and laws to protect the rights of nursing dads. Prove me wrong. Women need to be given respect, and motherhood and nursing need to be given honor, freedom and acceptance.
20.6.07
Sexualizing Young Girls
Something that really bothers me is the rampant sexualization of young girls that I see everywhere I look. Ok, maybe that is a slight bit hyperbolic. Regardless, sexuality is being forced upon girls at younger and younger ages. Men are attracted to the image of the young girl. This lead to all sorts of problems in our society.
Many people would blame Britney and her school-girl outfits. Maybe she's at fault; maybe she's a victim herself. In truth, I am not old enough to have been able to track the progression of this phenomenon myself, so I won't point fingers at who started it. I will, however, point fingers at some of those who help advance it.
Why should a girl have her ears pierced before she's old enough to want it done? I have seen many baby girls with pierced ears. Just this past weekend at that Maplewood Mall, I walked past a two-ish(?) -year-old girl screaming bloody murder as her mother held her down to get her ears pierced. I didn't know who to feel worse for--the little girl, or the poor Piercing Pagoda employee, who had the unfortunate job of traumatizing the kid. Why would a reasonable parent do this? It doesn't make sense to me. It seems so irresponsible. The only reason I can see for having earrings on a young girl is to make her look like a tiny woman. A little girl isn't a tiny woman--she's a little girl. It isn't "cute," it is a way of forcing an image of sexually maturity onto an innocent child.
Okay, next: trashy clothes. So many of the clothes marketed for teens, preteens, and young children are sexy. For example, at Target.com you can see the Toddler Girls Cherokee Cap Sleeve Dot Baby Doll Top or Girls' Genuine Kids from Oshkosh Smocked Tunic. At Walmart.com, you can see the Faded Glory Little Girls' Embroidered Halter Top. All these shirts are labeled as "toddler," "girl," or "little girl." They are all super-cute, but there is an inherent sexiness to them. There shouldn't be toddler shirts that make me say, "I wonder if they have that in my size..." But as unsuitable as these (and many other) tops are, they are nothing compared to swimwear. Why do bikinis for little girls even exist? They are impractical and overly-revealing. Convince me that there aren't men (or at least teen boys) who wouldn't ogle the swimsuit and body before looking up to the face to notice the gap-toothed smile of a five-year-old child. It's disgusting.
Now, here is what makes me REALLY upset about all this: American Baby Magazine, an organization that should know better, featured a disturbing picture on the cover of their June issue. I tried to find the pic online to link here, but I couldn't. And I don't really want to expose the poor child more than she already has been. But the picture is of a girl with her hair curled, wearing excessive amounts of blush, mascara, and lip gloss, and a tiny triangle-topped bikini. I guessed that she was no older than five. But when I opened the magazine, a blurb on the inside of the cover explained that the girl is actually 1 1/2. Wow. I don't see any possible chance that the girl does not have a feeling of being sexy, being appealing, even if she doesn't have the right words to label her feelings. Shame on her parents, and shame on American Baby Magazine.
So, parents out there: I beg you, do not dress your little girls like little women. Keep them safe and innocent as long as possible. There are plenty of chances for them to be sexy once they are grown. And imagine how much more difficult it will be to train your daughter to make moral and safe choices once her hormones are going crazy if you have been laying the groundwork for promiscuity for years.
Many people would blame Britney and her school-girl outfits. Maybe she's at fault; maybe she's a victim herself. In truth, I am not old enough to have been able to track the progression of this phenomenon myself, so I won't point fingers at who started it. I will, however, point fingers at some of those who help advance it.
Why should a girl have her ears pierced before she's old enough to want it done? I have seen many baby girls with pierced ears. Just this past weekend at that Maplewood Mall, I walked past a two-ish(?) -year-old girl screaming bloody murder as her mother held her down to get her ears pierced. I didn't know who to feel worse for--the little girl, or the poor Piercing Pagoda employee, who had the unfortunate job of traumatizing the kid. Why would a reasonable parent do this? It doesn't make sense to me. It seems so irresponsible. The only reason I can see for having earrings on a young girl is to make her look like a tiny woman. A little girl isn't a tiny woman--she's a little girl. It isn't "cute," it is a way of forcing an image of sexually maturity onto an innocent child.
Okay, next: trashy clothes. So many of the clothes marketed for teens, preteens, and young children are sexy. For example, at Target.com you can see the Toddler Girls Cherokee Cap Sleeve Dot Baby Doll Top or Girls' Genuine Kids from Oshkosh Smocked Tunic. At Walmart.com, you can see the Faded Glory Little Girls' Embroidered Halter Top. All these shirts are labeled as "toddler," "girl," or "little girl." They are all super-cute, but there is an inherent sexiness to them. There shouldn't be toddler shirts that make me say, "I wonder if they have that in my size..." But as unsuitable as these (and many other) tops are, they are nothing compared to swimwear. Why do bikinis for little girls even exist? They are impractical and overly-revealing. Convince me that there aren't men (or at least teen boys) who wouldn't ogle the swimsuit and body before looking up to the face to notice the gap-toothed smile of a five-year-old child. It's disgusting.
Now, here is what makes me REALLY upset about all this: American Baby Magazine, an organization that should know better, featured a disturbing picture on the cover of their June issue. I tried to find the pic online to link here, but I couldn't. And I don't really want to expose the poor child more than she already has been. But the picture is of a girl with her hair curled, wearing excessive amounts of blush, mascara, and lip gloss, and a tiny triangle-topped bikini. I guessed that she was no older than five. But when I opened the magazine, a blurb on the inside of the cover explained that the girl is actually 1 1/2. Wow. I don't see any possible chance that the girl does not have a feeling of being sexy, being appealing, even if she doesn't have the right words to label her feelings. Shame on her parents, and shame on American Baby Magazine.
So, parents out there: I beg you, do not dress your little girls like little women. Keep them safe and innocent as long as possible. There are plenty of chances for them to be sexy once they are grown. And imagine how much more difficult it will be to train your daughter to make moral and safe choices once her hormones are going crazy if you have been laying the groundwork for promiscuity for years.
The Mission
Welcome to Cruelty-Free Mommy! I have been considering starting a parenting blog for quite a while, and I finally decided to get on with it. My mission with this blog is to have a place for myself and others to share ideas, concerns, complaints, and advice about parenting and related issues. Anyone who has seen "We Have Mixed Feelings About Sven Sundgaard" knows I am frugal, so this will also be a venue for sharing tips about keeping family life affordable in the Twin Cities. Feel free to bring up any topics of interest, and I'll most likely be happy to dialogue about them. Thanks for visiting and come back often!
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